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Morwen Oronor
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Location: South Africa
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With respect Kaunisto, I completely disagree with you. And from the point of view of psychology, all our behaviour is learned.
Because society expects girls to be dressed in pink (hell in the hospitals they send little girl babies home with a pink cap)  and because boys are expected to be "tough" we "see" their behaviour in those roles. If a girl is gentle and softly spoken, we're likely to say "she's a real girl" and because of it, encourage her "femininity" and if she is a little rough, we say "girls must be gentle, don't behave like a boy!" We do it without thinking.
They start out thus before they've had their first nappy change at home, with a preconception that they have to like pink, play with dolls, speak softly, be shy. And with boys, when they cry we say "cowboys don't cry" although not so much anymore.
My belief is that you let kids be what they are. When they are babies, dress them in non-gender-specific colours. (Pink/blue used to be the other way around before some princess changed it and made it the fashion in the early 1900s). Give them the same toys to play with and let them choose the toys they want. When they want to learn something, encourage it. Just because a girl likes to bake cakes, it doesn't mean she will also enjoy roasting chickens, or if a boy likes to play with action figures, it doesn't mean that he might not like designing clothes.
I won't be buying gender-specific clothes for my grandchildren. I didn't for the boy and I won't for the girl. When we went shopping and didn't know she was a girl, we bought neutral colours, and Tom still wears neutral colours. I bought a Springbok bodysuit for my granddaughter, and a t-shirt. And I bought teddy bears for both of them. I won't buy dolls, if she wants them, she'll have to ask for them, but I won't assume that she'll love dolls, or cars, or that he'll want a gun, or a sewing machine. I'll let them say what they want and give them the toys they choose.
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Jun/7/2011, 12:56
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Kaunisto
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Location: Finland
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And from the point of view of psychology, all our behaviour is learned.
That I strongly disagree. I'd say psychology - which in general is suspicious to me as a young and extremely inaccurate science - concentrates far too much on learned and ignores biological.
I'm certain far more qualities and personality traits come from DNA than is currently accepted.
The society I've grown in has been... I'd dare to claim among most gender neutral in world, but as far as I know (having little experience from elsewhere) the differences between sexes are very similar, if slightly lesser, than elsewhere.
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Jun/8/2011, 16:58
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Petal Alderin
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Kaunisto I'm inclined to agree with you that genes are extremely important and play a huge role with regard to all sorts of things making up who we actually are.
Our grand-daughter wore "neutral" clothing...I want a pink one!
That's possibly because she's been allowed to choose. A child under the age of three is too young to make important choices that will affect the rest of its life. Children should be given all the options, and they should have their personal choices within limits. Thus I would allow for only one of every colour so that the child experiences all options without becoming a tyrant who demands her own way all the time.
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When our boys were her age there ... no big deal.
That's your personal experience Petal. There is no evidence that all girls are more likely to be interested in clothes than all boys aren't. It depends greatly on the relationship they have with both the parents. If the father has a passion for clothes and has a vast wardrobe of designer suits, etc etc, it is very likely his young sons will want to also wear the same suits. If the mother of a girl is interested in clothes, she will influence her daughter to be interested too. But this is a generalisation. The child's innate nature will also influence the degree to which the mother's dressing influences her, and especially if she has a good relationship with the father, she is more likely then to ask his opinion or to wear clothes that he chooses or approves of. To cite personal experience from my point of view. My boys grew up with three different men, and they display, as adults, aspects of the influence of the three men in their character, a couple of them have always been aware of "dressing" one isn't interested, and is like me an indifferent dresser, the fourth wears what is appropriate for each occasion but is mostly indifferent. When it comes to interests again, I can see the influence of the three men in those interests. It all depends on how they identify with their parent, the relationship they have with each parent, and how the parent behaves in any given situation. It's rare for the child of a mass-murderer who grows up with violence, to become a mild-mannered science teacher.
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I've seen lots of little girls in blue, ... no ways!
Maybe they were just not inclined to more artistic pursuits. Again that's your experience. My personal experience may be different but again, it's not science.
When did pink lose its masculinity.
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Girls giggle more. ... even tomboys discover their femininity when those kick in.
While psychologists agree that there may be a certain amount of gender-specific behaviour in children, and I'm not denying this, most behaviour is learned. If children are encouraged to laugh, they will laugh. If not, they won't laugh. But just like all sorts of inappropriate behaviour, children can be taught to control inappropriate laughter. Little girls giggling for instance can be very annoying to teachers when their parents have encouraged it because it's "cute" a wise parent will therefore say "enough" before a teacher tells a girl to sit outside until she's learned to control herself. And not all girls giggle. None of us ever did.
I'm don't want to cite personal experience here, I haven't done the research myself but from what I've read and discussed with psychologists especially after the news report last week about the family that are raising their children to be gender-neutral to the extent that they are not letting even the grandparents know the gender of their latest child, the psychologists all agree that children can be raised to be gender neutral and that all the 'giggling' or 'boyish' behaviour you mention, can drift from one to the other gender, they call the idea that there is a 'fixed' male/female gender a "binary" point of view. We all know women who hate wearing dresses and boys who love fashion, and that they were like that as children. It doesn't mean that they are "gay' just that the lines of their gender are blurred, and I personally think it's better that way.
Gender-neutral chld being raised in Canada.
This is not the first case, there is a couple in Sweden who've done this as well.
It's unfair to children to put them into a gender-role as soon as they are born, they should be allowed to explore all the possibilities open to them. When you fill a girl's cupboard with dresses and paint her room with pink fairies, you are forcing gender identity on them. It's better to leave everything neutral, even when they express a desire for something more gender-specific, offer it as an occasional alternative option. That's what most psychologists suggest anyway.
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I think all girls have a masculine side and all boys have a feminine side - some ... yes they are very different.
Unfortunately gender is not one or the other. Every one of us has a little of both, and the eventual sexual identity a person develops will develop a lot easier if the person is allowed to explore all the options. Thus if a boys wants long hair and to wear a dress, he shouldn't be reprimanded but allowed to explore the feel of different ways of dressing, within boundaries of course, besides their peers will eventually set them "straight." Peers have an enormous influence on children's choices.
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Hannah doesn't like dolls. ... they lie at the bottom of the toybox.
That's exactly right, she's getting all the options, not being restricted to only dolls, or only cars. As she gets older she'll make up her mind for herself about not only her entertainment choices, but her education choices and her ultimate choice in life partner.
But look at her mother, is her mother a 'baby-loving' kind of woman, if she is, then the behaviour is identifying with the father. Does the mother, and the grandmother carry a handbag and wear jewellery, if yes, then that's the behaviour-learning. If the mother doesn't wear jewellery and the father isn't a jewellery-buying kind of man, chances are the girl won't be 'that' into jewellery, or handbags. Kids definitely live what they learn, at home, and then at school, and then at 'big' school. Sometimes the influence can even be a favourite aunt/uncle, for instance some friends of ours have a daughter who is very effeminate and another who has a serious weight problem. When the latter mother's daughter was growing up, she formed a very strong bond with her aunt. She copied everything the aunt did, dress, walk, everything. It's just the way it is. Personally, for me it was my dad, we were very close so I loved everything he liked and rebelled against the females in the family because they picked on me.
My problem is when people assume that because a girl is a girl, she has to like pink and have pink dresses, or because a boy is a boy that being "gay" is an aberration. People are just people and they should be allowed from a young age, but with discipline and limits, to make choices at their level. For instance giving a three year old the option of what to wear to nursery school is not a cross a parent wants to place on their shoulders. But the clothes the parent lays out should also be comfortable, appropriate and suitable for the activity. Again I have a problem with kids being offered adult clothes that are inappropriate to a degree, just like I have a problem with them making demands about what to wear every day, but I also don't see a problem with a certain amount of leeway for special occasions. I don't think a little girl should wear a mini skirt to school, but I can't see why she shouldn't be allowed a slightly shorter skirt to wear to a birthday party.
Last edited by Morwen Oronor, Jun/8/2011, 20:00
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Jun/8/2011, 17:31
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